Episode 4: Making Space to Create with Ellen Doty

A lot of parents feel like they’re constantly trying to keep everything moving at once with work, family, creativity, responsibilities, and the never-ending mental load that comes with all of it. But for musician and mom Ellen Doty, motherhood didn’t pull her away from creativity, it changed the way she approaches it entirely.

In this episode, Ellen opens up about how becoming a mother reshaped both her life and her art. We talk about the shift in priorities that comes with parenthood, the challenge of finding time and energy to create, and the surprising ways motherhood has made her more reflective, grounded, and connected to her work.

She shares what it actually looks like to keep a creative career alive in the middle of busy family life, from writing songs during nap times to squeezing in work late at night, and why letting go of unrealistic expectations has been an important part of the process.

We get into:

•  Finding creative time in the middle of parenting and everyday chaos 
•  How motherhood changed her relationship with music and creativity 
•  The importance of community and support for working parents in the arts 
•  Navigating the mental load of career, creativity, and family life 
•  Letting go of perfection and redefining what balance looks like 
•  Why creativity can become a source of connection instead of pressure 

Throughout the conversation, Ellen challenges the idea that motherhood and artistry are somehow at odds with each other. Instead, she shares how parenting has deepened her perspective, strengthened her creativity, and helped her approach both motherhood and music with more intention.

This episode is for creative parents trying to hold onto the parts of themselves they love while raising a family, or anyone who’s ever wondered if there’s still room for ambition, art, and creativity after becoming a parent. It’s an honest reminder that sometimes creativity doesn’t disappear in motherhood - it just evolves alongside you.

Thanks for being part of this conversation. Mother Makes Music is all about honesty, connection, and reminding each other that we’re not doing this alone. If this episode spoke to you, we’d love for you to share it and keep the conversation going.

Follow along on Instagram and TikTok @mothermakesmusic

Mother Makes Music is hosted by Megan McKay
Podcast Artwork by Emily Pond
Podcast Theme by Matty McKay
Funding generously provided by Calgary Arts Development

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Welcome to the Mother Makes Music podcast. My name is Megan McKay. I'm your host, and I'm so glad you're here. My guest today is Ellen Doty. Ellen Doty is an incredible jazz vocalist. She has toured around the world. She's released albums with record labels. She was named a top 35 under 35 jazz musician by the CBC. This conversation with Ellen was so interesting to me because I work in music on the business side of things. So you can talk to me about Edmin, you can talk to me about project management, anything behind the scenes. The actual creation of music is not something that I have experience with. And I think about myself, how sometimes I have to work after the kids go to bed. That's the only time I have to do it. And it's mentally draining because obviously the day was long. The last thing I want to do at 8:30 once the kids are down is put in a couple hours of work. It's just totally the way I have to do it to make things work sometimes. But I'm just doing, admin, I'm just sitting here writing a newsletter at 9 p.m. I'm not actually trying to find the energy to be creative and to create music or to write lyrics or to rehearse for a show. And I think about where I am. And if I had the mental load that I have right now after a long day with the kids, and I'm still thinking about who's doing what tomorrow, what activity do we have coming up? What do I need to pack for snacks? What's in the fridge? I need to go grocery shopping. I need to get summer clothes. I need to do this. I need to do that. I can, I can kind of put that aside and just input information in a newsletter. I don't know if I could put that all aside and then create. So it was really interesting to get to talk to Ellen and hear some of her strategies for being able to do that and how she feels like becoming a mother has changed her art for the better. So here is my conversation with Ellen Doty. Well, hi, Ellen. Thank you so much for joining us today. Absolutely my pleasure. Thanks for having me. So I have a bunch of questions for you today, but before we start talking about your career and motherhood, I would love to go back to the beginning. Can you tell me about your journey into the music industry?

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yeah, I mean, I guess for most folks in the industry, I think music comes to them at different times of their life. For me, it started really young. My mom was a a choir director, and I started performing and just loved music from a really young age. And I performed with the uh youth talent show at the Stampede, I think first when I was five. Just I just loved getting to be on the stage and singing and playing piano. And then I uh did vocal jazz uh performance at a university and I just loved the the chance to get to explore that more and learn more about my voice. I always did voice lessons sort of growing up and that kind of thing, but had a lot of different interests, so it wasn't always sort of my my primary. And then I yeah, I've had sort of a whining journey to get to to the point where I was um a full-time artist. I um also did science at the University of Calgary and was unsure of about sort of making the jump to being a full-time artist at that point. But things started to come together and I got some support to do my first recording project. And then from there, just um was able to be really lucky to tour to lots of places and get grant funding and support from from lots of folks to help with doing recording projects, and then it sort of just went from there. Now um have two careers that I love. Um and that's uh one being in music, and then the other I work in in fundraising, which I also sort of came through uh to through the arts. I feel like I'm at a a beautiful point now where I get to to have both of those things that are really meaningful to me in my life, and um just love being able to make art and share music with people. It's such a uh beautiful part of getting to be a musician. For you became a mom, what did success look like for you? I feel like as an artist, I was like always operating on the edge of burnout. I worked a lot of hours um late into the evenings and did lots of touring. I think as an artist, you're always thinking about having lots of different sources of revenue available to you, applying for that next grant, planning tours. You're really doing all of that on your own, thinking about social media content. So it's a really consuming part of your life. I think success to me throughout my sort of artist journey has changed. I think when you're first starting out, you want to get to perform for bigger audiences and get your music out to a lot of people. Or that's sort of maybe where it started, even though there's this, you know, deep love for making music within you. But I think later in my career I found a place where success to me was more um wanting to create music that was genuine to me and to who I am as a person and and my life and being happy with that. I think hoping that people would connect with the music because it was uh connected to me, if that makes sense. I think when I first started, there's I felt expectations about like performing a certain type of music or doing a, you know, being a certain, I don't know, type of type of way or following a more traditional path, especially having been involved in sort of the jazz um realm, which is a bit more more traditional in a lot of ways. But yeah, I think it it has become um, I think really more about creating music that's genuine to me and a reflection of of who I am and wanting to be able to share that with other people.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Did you always know that motherhood was going to be part of your life journey, or was that something that came as a surprise to you?

SPEAKER_00 6:23

I think I always knew that I wanted to have children. I wasn't sure at what point where or where that would sort of land in my life. I think as a result of being an artist for many years was later than I had maybe originally thought when I was younger. I think I had expectations. Like my parents had kids quite young and always thought I might follow that path similarly, but obviously the the realities of life as an artist are not um always conducive to being able to do that. So yeah, I think I always knew that I wanted to be a mother, didn't know when or or what the timing would look like, but I think got to a point where it felt like the time, the timing was right. It was a good time to explore that. I think, especially in the last number of years, I've always known even before I had a child, of my thought was always that I only wanted to have one. Um lots of people ask me about that, but I think um both my partner and I are musicians and have always felt like we want to be able to continue to not that you can't do it with multiple children, but we wanted to be able to still tour and both have lots of other activities and felt like we maybe couldn't explore that as much with multiple children. But that's just our opinion and our our sort of choice. But uh yeah, it's it's been a beautiful experience, beautiful and challenging, but has really, I think, tied in a lot to my art as well. Like my last album was really like written around anticipation of being a mother and sort of that precipice of change that I was on, knowing that things would change a lot in terms of just the the travel and the sort of tour life that I had been accustomed to previously.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

So was professional timing either for you or for your partner something that you guys considered before getting pregnant?

SPEAKER_00 8:20

I think we had just both gotten to a place in our lives and our careers where we felt like we were ready and it was it was the time to sort of start along that journey. Obviously, getting pregnant happens in its own uh time. And um I experienced a pregnancy loss before getting pregnant with my son now, Leon. But um, yeah, I think at the time we we felt ready, and it was a good point in in both of our careers where we felt like um we were ready to I think spend some more time at home and together and and uh be be more settled, um, knowing that we would have some challenges in trying to organize our schedules and you know make make our lives work, but that you just find uh find a way to do that. So, how would you describe your postpartum experience? Oof. Um I feel like the I mean, there's lots of phases of it. The postpartum experience at the hospital was not very positive for us. It was just, yeah, very challenging. Um our child had jaundice, and we had to stay in the hospital for an extra period of time and had some back and forth. There was also like a shared room in the postpartum with a large family with a number of kids staying next to us. So it was really hard to like have sort of privacy and quiet in those early moments. So I feel like just that that uh beginning right after birth was was quite stressful. I think as with and I mean any every mother's experience, I think is so different. But I feel like we it was really hard. It's just a hard experience. The lack of sleep, and our son was quite fussy. I would say like almost first year. We like later figured out there was some like allergy and other things happening, but I think it's just also new, and there's a lot of trying to navigate and seeking support. I mean, I'm so grateful too. Like, I have this um mom's group that I'm in, and uh we like text all the time, and it's it's just a place to like okay, this is happening. And um, so I think that community of of support has been so helpful in getting through that, and of course, my partner too. I feel like we've done such a good job of being a team through it and and supporting each other. Yeah, but I would say the first year was especially a lot.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Did you take a maternity leave or any other like significant amount of time off?

SPEAKER_00 10:58

I did, yeah. I took uh six months off. Um, and then uh my partner then um sort of took the the latter six months. So we split um up our time off, um, which was really nice. So we both sort of got um to to share that um experience. Actually, um my partner ended up being off for a bit longer um home with Leon, like until he was about a year and a half. Um so he spent almost a year um at home with him for the majority of the time, except for sort of arranging tours and things like that in between. So yeah, it uh we really shared that experience in in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Was there a moment that you realized that you would have to navigate the industry in your working life different now that you were a mom?

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think in general, there's just not a lot of like extra time and energy for like doing a lot of networking and events and like things outside of like my own performances and what I could manage on on my own. And even um just time to practice and prepare is hard, but I'm very type A. So always wanting to like be my best when I'm on stage. So having to, I think, let go of some of those expectations around performances. I'm going to have spent a lot of time preparing and like thinking about what I'm going to say and where and uh, you know, all of that stuff that goes into performance preparation beyond, of course, the music and getting time to really sit with it and rehearse it a lot with my band or whatever else. So I think having to let go of some of those expectations around that. I mean, luckily for my type of music, my performances are usually like fairly early in the evenings. Um, so I think I'm lucky in that way. I'm usually like a seven or seven thirty performance, but still navigating those times because that's like bedtime for uh a little one. So then there's that trade-off of like missing that time, or especially when bedtimes have been really challenging for a while. It's like, okay, now I'm leaving my partner to try to navigate that on their own as well. So those pieces for sure. I think we've really like leaned into scheduling and communicating, talking a lot and trying to give each other time and space, like to um do our own art and our and our work and be supportive of of each other in doing that. My partner plays a variety of music but tends to play or tour more on the indie rock side. So some late nights for him, which, you know, just trying to trade off and um figure out who's getting up in the morning as parents do. But uh yeah, all things that we've been able to navigate and and figure out together, just with I think adjusted expectations and knowing that we might not be able to engage in some of the extra activities with the industry or be as involved in some things as as we were previously, just because we don't have time or capacity to do that. And I think that's okay. I think it's okay to have things be different for a while and and uh adjust. And that was really hard for me at first, but I think it's in a better place now where I feel like I can let go a bit of some of those expectations and just enjoy getting the chance to have music and art be such a like important part of my life still and also be a mother and also, you know, via via fundraiser and and work and all these pieces of of my life. Do you feel like motherhood has changed your artistic practice at all? It's made me a lot more reflective, I think, in a lot of ways. And I I think too about like my own parents a lot more and like what their experiences was like or what my mother was like, and I think or is like, but I think like I have so much more gratitude, I think, for um my own mother and other mothers that have have have gone through this as well. I feel like there is beautiful connection there and just reflective about experiences in my own life. But then seeing a human learn and take in the world is such a beautiful thing to experience. And I think that feeds a lot into art, seeing someone take in the world for for the first time and learn all these things and how much things change um in such a short period of time. And I think that just incredible love that you have for this other being that I don't think you can really describe without having experienced it. It's just uh what I expected, but not, if that makes sense. Like it's just, yeah, I think changed me and therefore like changed my art and and who I am as an artist. In terms of my practice, obviously uh in general, there's less time than I would have spent previously sometimes. But I think it's just shifted to prioritizing um how I work and really always trying to to make time to um have that time at the piano or you know, have that time to set aside to write and be with my music as an important part of being, I think, a like engaged and good parent as well. Because I think having that like outlet has always been such a like important part of my life and who I am in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

That was gonna be one of my questions, actually. I think, especially with a young child, it is so much. The physical demands, the emotional demands. And I'm so curious to know how you then find time to have the capacity to create art and be creative and put energy towards that.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Sometimes it's just taking some quiet time and then maybe it's a shorter time than it would have before to just write some ideas down, to have my notebook and sit there uh when the baby's taking a nap, or something's come to me and I'm doing it in between something sometimes, and I'm taking down those ideas. It's not always the same amount of, I think, dedicated time, but it's sort of shifting and finding those spaces in between, I think, where I can have a little time. And then of course, if I'm uh, you know, preparing for a show or um wanting to do do some writing, it's headphones with the keyboard instead of having played out in the air before and sort of adjusting how that happens. But obviously there's a lot of uh good technology for being able to play quietly and our music stuff set up in our basement. So when the little one is snapping or sleeping, it's a good chance for either my partner or I to um get to to practice or work on things that we want to. I'd say in the very early days though, like no energy for that. But as things moved along, certainly finding time for that was just uh and is an important part of feeling like my full self. And in some ways it seems like it would be taking away, but it actually like gives more, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Are you and your partner involved in each other's music, or are you finding space for both of you to do your own creative process by yourself?

SPEAKER_00 18:28

We do play together sometimes. Typically it's been for we've done a few shows together actually, but often writing-wise, we I don't think we've ever written a song together. We write separately. We do play together sometimes at home if we're just like playing around and wanting to like play tunes or like playing some jazz standards or whatever that looks like. But I would say like our writing and rehearsing is typically separate unless we're like preparing for a show where we're um playing together or we're arranging something together. Especially during COVID, we played a lot together, which was really fun. Nowhere to go and lots of time to just experiment and play songs together, which is really fun. But yeah, we have our sort of own projects. I've got a band that I um play with, and Murray tours with an indie rock band, uh Scenic Reach, Alaska, and then he plays upright bass as well with lots of different jazz, country, you name it, all kinds of different uh projects and all kinds of things.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Do you find that your band has been, is it the same band that you had before you had your son? Do you find that they've been accommodating and kind of flexible with you through this transition period? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

The pianist Devin, actually, they just had their second baby. So we're similar um time frame and space in terms of having young little ones. I think his other uh child is three now. So very understanding of um those experiences. And his wife's also a musician um and a teacher. They had have had lots of navigating to do as well. And then Peter also has a daughter, and uh yeah, they they were both have been very understanding and supportive of working around schedules and finding time that works well, or sometimes coming to my house so that it's not far for me to go, or whatever that looked like. They've been really good about um navigating that together, which is awesome. I mean, a hard part was that I released my uh last album when Leon was six months old. Yeah, six months old, which was like a little ambitious to do and maybe something that I should have changed the date on. But so that part was hard. And my partner was touring at that time as well. I called on a very dear friend from Calgary to like, I went to soundtrack and then ran home, gave him dinner, got him put down, and then went back, did the show. Came back right after. He only woke up once while I was gone, and she was able to like put him back down. Lost his heart. That was a lot, and I was so tired, and he was like sick, and yeah, I think that timing may have not been the best choice in retrospect because of really not having like the capacity to like tour a lot like around the project as much as I would normally do for releasing an album. But the album was also like so connected to I think my pregnancies experience that it felt like the right time in a lot of ways too. So it was interesting to to navigate for sure.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

What has surprised you most about becoming a mother and then still trying to do your art, now you're working? What has surprised you the most about this whole experience?

SPEAKER_00 21:52

I think it's probably the the strength that mothers find to do all of these things and be mothers, you know, engaged. Mothers at the same time. Like it's amazing what people do. And you think that you can't do something, but then you surprise yourself with your ability to learn how to navigate this new space where you have way less time and you have to prioritize and um juggle a lot of things at once. Art and and music is such an important part of my being, and it's really cool to see my son feeling that and wanting to experience music and art as well. And I think that's the reassurance to that it's something that I can or won't ever lose from my life. I think it'll ebb and flow in terms of like how much I'm able to tour or be beyond the road, but that experience of sharing music with people and making music will always be part of my life. I think it's just the surprise that I actually have been able to like do shows and uh somehow still do that while having a little one. It's now getting easier. Like he's he's just turned two, and as it goes along, you find time, or maybe you find ways to better navigate things together and navigate the the challenges and the schedules and all the things that come up.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

As you guys are navigating your schedules and your different careers, how would you describe your village? What do you guys have for backup?

SPEAKER_00 23:20

My parents are um in Calgary, so they're very supportive, but there's distance there, but we they're very uh aware of our schedules and try to like if you know one of us is going to be away for shows or work or that, they'll often come up and help out with Leon, which is really, really nice. And then my uh parents-in-law are also um in Edmonton. My mother-in-law travels uh a lot, so she's not around as much, but um is always like happy to help if if we really need something, which is really nice. And luckily, now that Leon's a little older, we have a neighbor that's a university student that can come over and uh babysit um when we need, which is really nice. But I think because of like Leon being like a fairly challenging, fussy baby, it was hard to like have him with anyone else besides us for the first almost year and a half, probably. So it's now getting to the point more where he's in daycare, which is great, and is is more comfortable being with other people and is uh easier to manage, if that makes sense. So yeah, that that's been wonderful and lots of friends too. Like there's been like times that I've needed to call on on friends. Um, I remember sort of early on, I still play basketball um on a couple of uh teams, and I hadn't got the chance to like exercise for a while, and my team had a game, and I was like, Oh, I really want to go play. Um, but Marie was out of town, and I was just like, Hey Emily, could you come with me to my game and like sit with my uh child? And he had the little like earbuffs on. And so um, yeah, we're really lucky to have lots of support from from people around us, family and and friends too, which is awesome. And I think it's not where it would be I don't know how like people manage without that. I feel like it's um something that you need a lot of of help and support with because it's all consuming for sure.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Do you feel like you have any mentors or peers who have played a role in helping you navigate this season of your life?

SPEAKER_00 25:35

I feel like there's a lot of amazing mothers in the music industry that are such good role models for like that you can just do this and while it will be challenging, you don't have to like give up your music career when you become a mother. And like I think of I remember Jill Barber coming through when she was on tour and she had her family with her and her mom was there to help and performing and navigating that uh with your, you know, child, or she may have had two kids at that time on the road, which is awesome. Lila Bialy, a wonderful mother, also in jazz, and so many others. And folks like taking their kids with them and having them experience that, but having people come alongside them too that are willing to help and help provide that support. I think that community again is like such a big part of being able to make things work and and make it possible. Yeah, it's it's beautiful to see people doing that and continuing to make beautiful music and share that with people and tour and I mean have their children be part of experiencing that too. I think that's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Do you have any boundaries either professionally or personally that you've had to set since becoming a mom in order to make everything work?

SPEAKER_00 26:49

I try to be more protective of sleep. I feel like before I was a person that didn't need a lot of sleep to function, like I could stay up late and get up early and be totally fine. But I feel like this season of interrupted and short sleeps, and I I think always just being aware of the baby monitor in the background has made me like want to set more boundaries around like protecting my sleep time, if that makes sense. And so it means like sometimes we're not going out too. We used to love to go out and see lots of our like friends performing like later shows in town and and stuff like that. So some of that part of being as engaged in in the community is less possible in some ways, but um, then you adjust, you try to uh bring your child to you know be involved in a in a different way or on an adjusted schedule to still have those like points of connection and way to connect with the community without it like compromising your ability to be a good parent and be like not exhausted all the time.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

I have a couple just kind of quick fire questions for you. What is the most challenging time of the day to take a work call?

SPEAKER_00 28:02

I would say probably in the morning, just because I feel like after getting up, uh the little one wants lots of attention in the morning and to be old and close. So it's tricky to say, now I have to uh sit on a Zoom or whatever that looks like. Uh, because he he wants that, I think. Um, after not seeing us all night, wants that uh connection.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

What is your go-to after bedtime routine?

SPEAKER_00 28:33

I mean, it's usually doing the dishes, feeding my cats. Um, and then if we haven't had dinner yet, Maria and I will make dinner. But we're you we usually like to watch a show, at least something where we like get to sit together and like just be quiet for a moment and uh enjoy, enjoy that peace. And then sometimes we'll like break off and do our practicing or like work or whatever else um we need to do. We usually always try to take that uh moment and uh spend a little time just uh being relaxed for for a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

What is one household task that you would outsource permanently if money was no object?

SPEAKER_00 29:16

I mean, probably cleaning, not in terms of like tidying, but the actual like scrubbing of everything. I actually don't mind doing it. It's just so time consuming. Um, so it's just like finding time to do that. Um but we do have a wonderful person that comes to a clean for us once a month now, which we have invested in, and I feel like that has made a world of difference for sure. What is one thing that you no longer apologize for? I feel like I'm always too apologetic. So I don't know if I have a good answer for that. But I think if my like child is sick or or really needs me and I can't be at something, I feel like I always used to feel so bad forever canceling on anything. Um and I think it's just that recognition that things are different and this, you know, being needs me and is a a priority and it's something that all parents uh need to do sometimes, and that's just just the reality of parenthood, I think. My last one, what is a myth about working moms that you want to debunk? Oh, that's such a good question. Maybe it's that we don't get to spend uh, you know, much time with our kids or can't have as strong as a connection with them because we're busy working during the day, and obviously I sort of have two careers, so I um work in in fundraising and then also work as an artist. But I feel like I really schedule my time carefully and make sure I get lots of that time and connection with my child. It just makes for a long day sometimes and getting up extra early and adjusting my schedule to make sure I'm, you know, always home for um dinner time and those like special moments and spending lots of time together on weekends. And I think me being a fulfilled person that gets the opportunity to share music with people and do these things that I'm passionate about makes me a better mother. Um and makes me show up as my whole self and and hopefully inspire my child to take up lots of different interests and and whatever, whatever they may like to do.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

I like to do a little bit of manifestation, I guess. What do you see for yourself and your family in the next five years? Question.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

I haven't thought that that far ahead because it's been uh a bit of a crime. Yeah, you're in the weeds. I totally get it. I mean, I think in a lot of ways, doing what we're doing now, but growing in that and learning and navigating it together, I think it'll be really cool to um see Leon grow up with, you know, two parents that are musicians and getting him to take, you know, take him to our shows and having him see us perform and be part of that, you know, beautiful community that we're a part of in that way. And it will be wonderful to to watch him grow and watch how, you know, my music and my art and and my partners change all along with that journey and growing as parents and as human beings too. Yeah, Idol's a lot of big things. I think uh it's it it's enjoying uh the journey and um being a parent and like soaking up those moments. Everyone always says it goes by really fast, and I do feel like that now. Like even the first two years, part of it feels like a blur. So you don't want to uh forget those moments and really soak them up in in any ways you can, I think. And is there anything coming up for you professionally that we should keep our eyes out for? Any music? I'm doing some some more writing, so we'll hope to um release uh another project, at least in the next year or two, um, see how how quickly things come together. But that's always on the horizon, the chance to write and record some of what I've been thinking about and experiencing and having the chance to to share that with others. Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

And um it's you know, it is so fun. Like my daughter is five and my son is four. And looking back, I'm like, I don't even know how we did it. But now we're here and everybody is potty trained. He starts kindergarten in September. We're on the precipice of the next stage of life. But when you're in it, it all feels so I don't want to say relentless because that sounds so negative, but do you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 33:31

No, it is because there aren't any breaks. Like that is one of the things about it that's so hard is that it's not like you work really hard for a week and don't get much sleep. It's like that is your existence, which is which is tough. Yeah. But it's just the season, and the season will change. And it already is, like in in so many ways. And I imagine for you, like it has changed so much in that time, too. That's really cool. Like some starting kindergarten, I can't even imagine that. Well, thank you so much for your time. Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me and for the conversation, and thanks for doing this. I think it's really good to highlight uh mothers that are uh making music. It's awesome. It's a challenging and special experience.